GW stand-in minis: everyone's doing it!

[mangozac]

So just discovered , making obvious Spesh Mareen stand-ins. Now I don't want to sound like a total miniatures snob (even though I probably am), but I'm pretty unimpressed with his main line, the Steam Lords:

Honestly it's on par with early Chapterhouse stuff :/
I do give him props for a good looking website though!

Anyway the reason I felt compelled to post this was not to bag on his minis. In fact I wish him all the best and hope that his sculpting improves with each new product. What struck me is just the sheer number of people popping up and doing GW stand in and conversion bits. Maybe all this stuff with the Chapterhouse lawsuit has let people figure out exactly how to go about this kind of business while avoiding IP issues. Certainly these Steam Lords are sufficiently distinct from marines so as to avoid any issues...

Thoughts?

[Arkangel]

Well I've been and had a look and here are my thoughts.

1. I totally agree with Mangozac his website is well laid out, has thought and is easy to use. Puts CH's one to shame. Very clean and easy to navigate I thought.

2. I again agree with Mangozac he's got some good ideas, and they're just far enough away from main-line stuff to be heading away from any IP issues. Although his 'Renaissance Helemt' is close to the mark.

3. He does indeed need to perfect his sculpting in certain areas. Now I'm no 'Expert' please insert - Mangozac or Warhound, but I think thanks to Warhound, it helps to have talented mates , I have the skills to do better after a little tuition, and practice on my part.

4. Re-casting/Casting service - VERY cool idea! Something I think people may actually use for the sake of not putting out the serious dollar themselves, especially the concept of free casting for future release/sales options on original mini's. Although I'd want more than just a one off 50 run.

5. Price - Fair play the guy is realistic he's not going to make millions straight off but hey from accorns and all that.

So what does that mean.......

Forgeworld - he isn't, Scibor - he isn't, Chapter House - he has the potential to be a good UK alternative. If he got Warhound, CMDante, or someone similar sculpting for him there could be good things on the horizon. I only say this until he gets his own sculpting sharpened up for mass production to a wider audience. I'm not saying his stuff is rubbish, far from it I like it but Scibor has done the whole 'Spartan/Roman' thing and done it very well.

Joel has the potential to really do well I wish him all the best and I'll definately be watching

[mangozac]

[Arkangel]

[factor40]

I think the opinions already given cover it well. I do question why someone else is trying to take another stab at supplementing the over-crowded bits market for sm's.

I initially started off with the intent of making upgrade parts for 40kay IG. I went as far as to measure all their bits with a micrometer so I could replicate things to match. It was futile. I realized it was more rewarding to pursue my own stuff as I saw fit. I do try to match up with the "evil empire" on some scaling, only because I know that's a market I want to address.

As for the sculpting piece, I think Joel @ Anvil will soon realize he can hire better sculptors and put out better product. For right now, the more he does on his own, the less overhead he incurs and that is a very real consideration when starting up your own business.

[mangozac]

[Anvils Hammer]

Hey Guys,

Joel here from Anvil Industry, I found this page/thread through my google analytics. Most of the feedback I get is postive or negative but generally very short, so it really made my day to see a lenghtly and thoughtfull discussion, and I thought Id drop in.

Thanks for your comments, Im glad you like the website, its the basic opencart template with a lot removed and nothing added, to make it as simple as possible!

Obviously Im making my own original miniatures which are not designed with any particular third party kits in mind.. but considering in more general terms the phenomenon of small scale manufacturers making third party add on kits for GW miniatures, Its simply because GW are the largest miniatures company by far. For a small company, the best way to make a name and get an income coming in is to make parts which fit nicely with existing miniatures which are in high demand.

Your critique of my sculpting is entirely fair, there are many areas in which I need to pick my skills up, some of my earlier products are no longer available because with highnsight, the quality was awefull! My more popular products are now on "generation two" having had the masters re-done and new molds made. I strive constantly to improve the quality of my sculpting/modelling.

The suggestion that I contract out sculpting work to third parties is a good one, and I have enough money and am confident I would see a return on the investment. So why havent I so far?

Its the same reason Ive made the descision not to hire proffessional painters, even though they could do a MUCH better job than I can. I love wargaming, I love mastering new skills sets and improving my techniques, in both sculpting and painting.

Paying others to sculpt/paint for me robs me of the chance to improve.

In the short term, I would rather push my own skills to the limit with every new release, and improve with every new release.

I want to build Anvil Industry to become one of the largest and best miniatures companies in the world, so in future I will definatly be looking to work with external sculptors to add to my product range. For the time being, Im "going it alone" to save money, improve my skills, and maintain complete creative control over my steam lords range.

I guess its a personal pride thing partly...

Thanks again for your thoughts, Ill be popping my head in occasionally, this forum looks like an awesome place to hang out with like minded people

Joel,

Anvil Industry.

[mangozac]

The old Google Analytics trick eh? I always find it a little embarrassing to have someone reply in a thread where I've bagged their work.

First let me say that after I made the first post I had more of a look through your catalogue and it seems that there are quite a few bits that have been improved compared to the basic pic of the Steam Lord I posted. I was very happy to see that!

I totally understand your resolve to improve your sculpting, and in fact applaud it, however I feel like you've still got a bit of work to do before your sculpting abilities can support an entire line of minis. That's where employing third party sculptors comes in - giving the range pieces that you know the majority of people will want to buy.

The painting IMO is irrelevant. If a model is good enough then people will see that whether it's painted or not - just look at how FW posts many pics of its models in grey resin. Actually pictures that are badly painted are probably worse than no painting at all. Not that I'm saying your painting is bad mind you - it's probably better than mine!

I understand that making kits that will work with GW minis is the best way to reach the largest market; my interest lies in why there's so many people starting in the last year or so. Like I said in a previous post, I think it comes back to people seeing through the GW IP bullying and having a better understanding of just what they can do. And I genuinely think Chapterhouse (and its lawsuit) have largely contributed to this.

Oh and one last thing: be careful with personal pride. It's gotten me into trouble more times than I care to mention! Certainly a level of self esteem is important, but don't think that just because you can do something yourself doesn't mean you should

[paulson games]

Honestly I think they are a good start. Yes the sculpts can be improved but if you look at what a lot of companies start out with it certainly not bad. The vast majority of 80's period GW sculpts were pretty horrid. I do like the heads and could easily see using them on marines. The bodies are a bit bland but everyone has their own tastes so some people may prefer that.

I agree with Zac that painting isn't required to have a good product, it helps if you have great painting but marginal or bad painting can have a really negative effect. Look at the forge world site for example, tons of their products are shown as bare resin and they move plenty of stuff. Most of the older catalogs for GW and Privateer Presss show raw shots of the models/parts. In may ways I kinda prefer it as it gives me a better expectation of what the detail will be like. know I'm not the worlds most awesome painter so I prefer to see what it'll actually look like as I know it's not going to be looking like Eavy Metal paint crew.


The problem with casting on commission is that people for the most part are going to want GW or other companies stuff replicated. I get lots of email requests asking me to cast up soem certain part, and ultimately I have to turn it down. Most people that are sculpting up good quality work typically also can do their own casting as well so I don't think there's a huge pool of talented artists looking for casters for small projects.

For large scale commerical casting there's potential but only for the right price, the problem with casting for other artists or companies is you need to do it cheaply enough that they can still turn a good profit, and that means keeping your own margins quite low. So you really have to sit down and look at the costs vs the time commitment and return.


I think you are off to a great start,holding a goal to keep improving is what drives all sucessful business. From time to time take a moment to examine every aspect of what you do and always push to improve on it. Even the stuff you think you've goten down solid needs to be looked at from time to time. Never be afraid to experiment and try something new.

It takes alot of time to maximize your effeciency and always take care to listen to what people say about your products, (you don't always have to agree) but you should always consider what they comment on and see if it's something you can use to improve.

I think failing to do that is a huge reason why Chapterhouse gets such negative reactions with people in the online communities. Nick comes off as very defensive and often argues over comments, being humble and taking criticism will help you win a lot more friends and build your business faster.

It looks like you have the casting end down pretty well, but if you need any help there's some pretty good resources here and a lot of people you can bounce ideas off of.

[mangozac]

[Anvils Hammer]

[mangozac]

[Anvils Hammer]

Very approximatly, I am designing and releasing to a schedual.

I have a bit of paper with the next 3-4 months releases laid out.

prior to the website I made 3 separate releases in 6 months. Im now stepping things up a gear and aiming for a new release every two weeks, which as Im doing it all myself, is A LOT of work.

However I beleive it is doable, for example this weekend I am making/completing the masters for my spartan glaive, shield, praetorian running legs, fur cloaks and fur pelts, to be released, next weekend, hopefully.. then the following monday I start work on the next set of bits, which is currently due to be my medieval set- arms, legs, a new torso, backpack, battle axe, shield.

The release schedual is flexiable according to customer requests and depends on what I feel like workin on to an extent as well, for example I really want to get started on my steam Lord jet bike, so that will probably get done before christmas.

The long term "on the shelf till I have time" projects are the terrain range and my modular interchangable 28mm sci-fi guardsman project. As well as a load of larger more time consuming models which I can only work on once Ive got a basic product set in place.

Joel

[mangozac]

Sounds like you know what you're doing then, which is a very good thing!

I look forward to seeing things expand!

[Seb]

Thread like this, is why I supported Zac's ethos for setting up Resin Addict.

Start ups and small producers critiquing and helping each other out. Nice.

Can't add much more as I am not currently as invested in this part of miniature production, but just had to add this sentiment.

- Seb.