ATTENTION: As of March 2017 the Resin Addict Forums are being wound down.
New members are no longer being accepted. Read more about it here.

Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Found an interesting kit in resin or plastic? Want to review a kit you've just bought? Share it with us here!

Moderator: Wardens

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby blind pig » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:37 pm

I know what you are saying, but if I knew some model that I owned had an RFID chip in it and may be checked by a company (especially GW), then I'd be nuking it in the microwave for 10 seconds to kill the chip and frack with them, just because I can......
blind pig
Junkie
 
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Lane » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:10 am

That would be your choice, and if you were at a Con and a FW rep asked to scan your models you could tell them that.

Using RFID was proposed as a method of protecting the customer as much as the producer.
One sculptorwas at a Con when a customer approached him and complained about declining quality of the sculpts and that kits were not as good as previous releases. The customer had the kit with him and they compared it to one the sculptor was selling. Turns out the customer had a recast. Apparently the materials were cheap and it was multiple generation of recasting because the model was almost 10% smaller than original.
Lane
Habit
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Arkangel » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:46 am

Question: I have a model that is no longer available. I want another to convert and my mate wants one. Is it right that I re-cast the miniature?

Further Question:
And if so, should I spread the love for a small fee to other friends/collectors?

One more:
Is it wrong to re-cast AT ALL, or if your just trying to convert a OOP mini or a limited edition mini where do you draw the line?

I know where I stand, but it seems to me black and white, right and wrong, fall square into the grey area when you have dicks on ebay ripping people off left right and centre and FW don't limit people at Events for event only minis?
I know at previous events in the UK they have limited people in their purchases, and allowed people to order extra for delivery, at a later date, to ensure stock isn't rinsed by dicks buying all of the minis up in a oner.
But that still doesn't stop people 'ordering' lots then selling them on.

And as for the tagging thing, seriously guys GW/FW spending actually money to protect their product AND the customer!!!!!!!?????

Come on guys it's not the 1st of April for nearly 3 months :roll:

Have at it :mrgreen:
Hey do me a favour, point that thing somewhere else!

http://photobucket.com/Arkangel_bucket
User avatar
Arkangel
Habit
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:31 am
Location: UK

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Lane » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:51 am

Arkangel wrote:Question: I have a model that is no longer available. I want another to convert and my mate wants one. Is it right that I re-cast the miniature?


Depends.
Are they available on secondary market?
Is it OOP but the company could re release the model?
Is there an equivalent model (non recast) available from another company.

A prime example would be an Armorcast Phantom Titan.

Another would be Skinny Soldiers from Mongoose Publishing's Starship Troopers game. They are OOP but also original sculpts/ designs not seen in the video, so they 'could' be re-released.

Arkangel wrote:Further Question:
And if so, should I spread the love for a small fee to other friends/collectors?


Friends might be OK, others not so OK. Personally I would only charge cost to friends, if anything.

Arkangel wrote:One more:
Is it wrong to re-cast AT ALL, or if your just trying to convert a OOP mini or a limited edition mini where do you draw the line?


I have recast parts for model kits. Both as conversion bits and replacement parts.
My guidelines are:
Would I be willing to buy a complete kit for the bits?
Are the parts available as bits on secondary market?
Can it be done with alternate parts?
Will the finished model be sold?

Examples:
Curved gun shield from baneblade hvy bolter sponson to replace one miscast, prior to them being available as bits - YES Turns out I got a replacement before model was completer anyway.

SM Dreadnaught arm for weapon conversion - NO

Arkangel wrote: I know at previous events in the UK they have limited people in their purchases, and allowed people to order extra for delivery, at a later date, to ensure stock isn't rinsed by dicks buying all of the minis up in a oner.
But that still doesn't stop people 'ordering' lots then selling them on.


Very gray area. Recasts would devalue the few purchased by legitimate buyers slightly and probably not affect the dick who cornered the market much. FW could also re release the mini, in fact it would be a great PR move. "due to an oversight on our part we allowed a single customer to deprive most of our fans a chance to purchase xxxx miniature at our event. To make things right we are re-releasing the mini for a limited time."

Arkangel wrote:And as for the tagging thing, seriously guys GW/FW spending actually money to protect their product AND the customer!!!!!!!?????


1) the idea was not for Forgeworld alone.

2) nobody would expect GW/FW to spend their own cash for this, they would charge 5-10 times the cost of the chip added into retail price.
Lane
Habit
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Eddie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:08 am

I have wondered about this, Obviously direct clones would be illegal to sell but if you have made changes to the original part, or item then surely thats ok to sell as its not the same,

I would like to learn more about this

Cheers Eddie ;)
Eddie
Casual
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:53 am

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Fleafa » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:18 pm

If challenged, it would come down to a court decision. Such is the fuzziness of IP law. You may find it comes down to a question of what percentage of the final part is made up by the non-original part. That said, what it would really come down to is whether or not your pockets are deep enough to get that far.
In the end, if you have the skill to make something worth selling, why use someone else's hard work?
User avatar
Fleafa
Junkie
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:56 am
Location: Fareham, Hampshire, UK

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby mangozac » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:20 pm

Really well said Fleafa!
Oh yeah I can make that....
User avatar
mangozac
Resin Addict Collaborator
 
Posts: 4271
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: QLD, Australia

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Eddie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:25 pm

I was wondering in relation to aircraft conversions and conversion kits to different versions.
To allow different marks to be made.
Surely if you have altered most of it its basically just manipulation Of a material to achieve a goal as it would carving anything else.

There are many modded aftermarket aircraft parts intake it its because no model company can own copyright on the design of a shape but only on the design on thier product in how it fits together package etc.
Eddie
Casual
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:53 am

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby mangozac » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:46 am

Eddie I think it comes down the the "value added". If you're doing significant modifications in order to legitimately create something not on offer (especially if you feel there is just as much work doing the modifications than creating the parts from scratch) then you might be ok. I certainly wouldn't base a business of solely doing that.

You're right that you can't own copyrights on generic shapes, but note that an artist/company does retain copyright on a particular instance of a shape. You are not able to reproduce their instance of that shape but you could create your own from scratch and sell copies of that.

So by all means, make as many conversion parts as you want (there's nothing illegal about that), but I would minimise the number of existing parts (that you don't own the copyright to) that you use in the creation of your master parts.
Oh yeah I can make that....
User avatar
mangozac
Resin Addict Collaborator
 
Posts: 4271
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: QLD, Australia

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Eddie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:42 am

Well what I am creating is conversion parts but I have also created a mold of the entrire aircraft for personal use as I wish to make many and don't fancy doing a 5 month conversion for each.

What I have created has never been offered in model form and likely never will.
But even though its from an exising mold every single area is changed more than 90% is different and the original and my version go hand in hand as people would likely want to have one or more of each.

However this all happened by accident and I had no initial intention of selling it but will be happy to for people who want it if only paying for the cost of the resin.

I can't see it being a problem myself as the original could not offer what mine does and it does feature scratch built parts. So it is unique but needs to be common in certain area to show design lineage as per the real thing.

I could scratch the whole lot and will do at somepoint if only for fun but as this happened as a happy accident it did not seem important at the time.

I mean if every area is modded heavily and resurfaced then all I'm dealing with is plastic in a similar shape. Intake it seriously as I don't wish to tread on toes.
This is not a fake / clone its more an accessory that supports an existing product.
And would hopefully also boost sales to the original by the conversion kits being sold also.

I see many blatant bootlegs and copies of certain things on ebay but they are advertised as such and often of very old out of production items. I guess if you mark it clearly as a garage item is this ok.

I am finding it hard to find any law on this and it seems a very grey area of affairs except for the
Copying and faking area and trying to make out something is what it's not.


I gues I will have to see how it goes and if it just ends up as something for only me I will be happy at that :)
Eddie
Casual
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:53 am

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby mangozac » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:38 pm

Honestly it's still not super clear exactly what you're doing. Is there any chance you could share some pictures?
Oh yeah I can make that....
User avatar
mangozac
Resin Addict Collaborator
 
Posts: 4271
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: QLD, Australia

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Eddie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Aye I appreciate that but can't reveal it yet soon I hope. Made a promise to keep it secret as best I could.

The best way I can put it is this imagine a fictitious aeroplane that in this fiction is in the real world. There are multiple versions of this but only one version is produced in model form. But for all they are similar they are actually very different. Wings , panel lines, shape, wheels everything slightly or wildly different. So someone spends 5 months changing it all its the best route to keep continuity so the two different versions can be displayed next to each other.

I will do my best to crack on and show you soon as I e nearly finished my prototypes

Cheers Eddie
Eddie
Casual
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:53 am

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby Fleafa » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:48 pm

None of us are lawyers, of course, and IP law is far from clean cut. If you have made modifications to the point that the original manufacturer wouldn't spot you have used their product as a base, you are probably fine legally. IP cases are almost all civil, not criminal, so require a plaintiff to initiate a case against you.
You make it sound as though you have used the original model as an armature of sorts. This is probably safe, but hard to tell from description alone and no actual law knowledge!
User avatar
Fleafa
Junkie
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:56 am
Location: Fareham, Hampshire, UK

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby mangozac » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:17 am

Again, Fleafa has summed it up nicely. If you like you can email me a picture at mangozac at this site name.com and I can give you my thoughts (I will keep everything confidential of course).
Oh yeah I can make that....
User avatar
mangozac
Resin Addict Collaborator
 
Posts: 4271
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: QLD, Australia

Re: Price gouging and illegal recasting discussion

Postby REDEATH » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:11 am

I for one am sick of Games Workshop's greediness.

First they raised priced on the premise that Metal was getting more expensive since they could not use lead anymore.

Then they tell everyone they are switching to plastic because it will be cheaper all around and better for the gamer. (initially it was cheaper then they quickly started raising the prices)

Then they start raising the price on plastic miniatures every June on the premise that "oh well plastic is made from oil and oil is so expensive now.

Then they move ALL manufacturing and even the printing of books to China which I'm sure was WAY WAY cheaper than what it cost them doing it in the UK. (And still continue to raise prices even though they are saving a ton of money on cheap Chinese manufacturing and labor)

Now oil is at an all time low and was on a steady price decline all year round and yet GW is still raising their prices on plastic models. $60USD for a 5 man Space Wolves Wolfen pack how much longer until its $100 for a 5 man squad of anything.

GW is no longer a Privately Owned Game Company it is now a high class Publicly Traded Greedy Corporation. There is no interest in the gamers anymore its just about the profit now. There are no more GW sponsored tournaments no more Games Day celebrations in other countries (heck in the US we used to have 3 at one time)

I for one have no sympathy for GW getting ripped off by all the Russian and Chinese recasters.
REDEATH
Casual
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:30 am

PreviousNext

Return to Kit Finds & Reviews

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron