BattleSuit Re-imagined

[mel_danes]

I am learning the 3D printing, and resin duplication process for a personal project. My first attempt is to make my own version of XXXXXX Battlesuit. I get where Jes was going, and I think the boys at Forgeworld have really raised the bar. This will be a steep learning curve for me but I would like to make several versions if I can get the entire process figured out. The resin duplication process will be for personal use only. Nothing I produce during the course of this project will ever be sold, period.

Now the pretty picture.


Each arm has three points of articulation for posing it just like you want before you glue it.
Each leg has four points of articulation.
I plan on having a dome/ball joint for the waist; think Forgeworld Dread waist.
The Head uses a simple ball joint for now but I would like to use something else.
My intention was to reverse the ball joint for the ankle and the neck, but I am running out of time and may need to come back to them.

This forum really cemented that I had found a place where I might find help, and people who understood this miniature/model/mech thing we have going on. I will ask questions in here for other forum members, a couple of you are masters and I could really use your help.

Here is a link of some of my other CG work.


Well thats it. I hope to have a long run here, thanks for this place fella's.

[Lane]

Have you considered using P-caps for the joints?
That would allow posing the model without the need to glue.

[paulson games]

I like the work you've done so far. One thing that jumps out at me is the hands, when you can see the inside of the hand ie the fingers it looks ok but when you view them from the back they just look like boxes stuck on the end of the forearm. I'd try and bring them out further so you can actually see the hand detail.

Right now they look like a mechanical boxing glove, which isn't a bad look but Tau are pretty limp wristed when it comes to CC and not sure it's a good match for the suit.

A second small sggestion would be to add a slight taper to the shin pieces widen the top of the shin slightly so that it narrows as it goes towards the ankle. The knee structure is good but the lower legs feels a bit too skinny to me. It doesn't need a huge increase in size, just enough to give it a slight sense of being angled. You want to emulate a dog's rear leg or that of a gazelle as they are powerful & quick legs intended for leaping, they have a muscular thigh which tapers down the length of the leg to a small footprint. That'll help give it the feel of being very agile.



I totally love the gun you did in 3D, I'd seen that while googling a while back and it came out great.

[mel_danes]

[mangozac]

Wow Mel talk about starting with a bang! I really like what you're doing here!

I agree with you I've always loved the direction of the original XV8 design, but it just hasn't aged all that well. It is quite old now too!

Paulson's critiques are very good and I agree with them 100%. Additionally even without the torso I do feel that the head is a little too big as is. The pelvis design looks great though and I look forward to seeing what you do with the base.

Who do you plan to use for printing?

[Fleafa]

I love it so far. Great crit from Paulson. The shin looks much stronger and just more interesting that way.

[mel_danes]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. The atmosphere and attitude at this forum is great.

Now to address some critiques. Thanks again everyone for your opinions. My friends and family are not Gear Heads so getting the feedback from peers is awesome.

Paulson - I'm going to get those calf's fixed tonight. I have a turn around rendered to give a better look at the arm and the "Boxing glove". Let me know what you think.



Still too H-t-H aggressive? I get where your coming from. I think if it was a little smaller it might look better. Maybe scrap it all together? Your thoughts?

Mangozac - I think for Jes to create this unit, striking a balance between raw interpretation and derivative expression was a lightning event for him. His style is so distinct and not anime. It must have been a struggle to let enough of the origins of the inspiration to seep out to attract the player base they wanted but not be so strong it drove the Grimdarks into a frenzy. His initial sketches show a much heavier and armored look than the actual released model. But enough academia....

The size of the head is a concern. The proportions of the original kit have the head larger than the forearm. I am playing with the proportions to get a taller sleeker look but still maintain that combat purposing look. The torso of the Crisis suit is huge compared to the relative mass of it's limbs. Which makes all the limbs and head seem tiny. I want to avoid that, going more of the route Forgeworld has taken with their X9 series.It may look a little different on both the body and backpack are on.
If the head is shrunk a bit how much would you say? 20%?

The pelvis on the original is atrocious, no movement of any kind. Having a pivoting and slightly tilt-able waist was one of my design requirements for this unit.

All - I am thinking of using Shapeways Ultra Frosted material, I can file and sand it to prep for resin casting so a little stepping is OK. The site says they can get it back in 10 business days, I need it by the 16th. This gives me time for the casting before I show it on the 23rd in class, using it for a Uni project. I know Shapeways is the budget solution and I figure this will cost about $70 before shipping. those of you familiar with this material and the scale of this unit can you weigh in on the detail I might get?

The other choice is Moddler, their stuff looks amazing, but I have no idea what it would cost and how fast I would get it. Paulson I know you have used their services, could you ballpark me a price and time? I will be uploading something on Monday to either service.

On a model inspection note. I struggled for weeks trying to design and build this project out in Zbrush because I thought that the models had to be watertight, or manifold. Using the Dynamesh feature I can create manifold pretty quickly, but making the base objects is painfully slow in Zbrush. I modeled this in Max 9 and after several model checker uploads to Shapeways it would appear as long as the final volume has no holes, interpenetrating geo is ok.
Is this true?
If I have a closed box jammed into another closed box will it print ok? I have no idea. Some friends say yes others no, so I'm dying here.

Thanks again all. I hope to have more to show later this morning.

[mel_danes]

Just the Booster pack and reactor core to go. Whew!
Time for bed.



The modified Burst cannon is one I had laying around and I wanted to do a cool shooting pose.

[mangozac]

IMO the head could be shrunk by up to 30%. Just try it out and see what feels right. I think the small head size is an important part of the original XV8 concepts.

The waist design looks really good and is a vast improvement on the XV9 waist. I'm not sold on the butt though - it looks a little like you couldn't work out what to do so just left it unfinished.

The forearm design I'm unsure about. It's not that I dislike anything in particular about it; but I just don't like anything about it either
Maybe the problem is the segmented armour panel...

I think the shoulders on the torso look great, but connected to the torso like this the shoulder pads just don't work IMO. They are far too wide and blocky looking. I think you're starting to overboard with all of the complicated shapes on there - go back to the simplicity of the shoulder pad design on the concept artwork.

Many people really hate the XV8 design, but despite its shortcomings I've always been a big fan. Like I said, the concept art IMO conveys a quite unique battlesuit design that is very powerful looking. Back in the day XV8s were indeed a very powerful unit!

Now granted I've never actually experienced it in person, from what I've seen around here I'd strongly urge you to reconsider using the Shapeways materials for the print. The cleanup required will simply be too much and you'll end up with far too many softened details. Moddler seems to be the minimum quality necessary. I'm sure the others will be able to comment further on this (and your other technical question).

Great work! Very exciting!

[Fleafa]

Moddler are very expensive but they manage well with fine details. Stepping was easily visible when I used them. They managed very thin parts. Their shipping may be faster than Shapeways but there is a Shapeways US facility now so I don't know.
I have no problems with using Shapeways FUD for production masters. Large surfaces can benefit from a gentle sanding with 400 grit or so. Hollow models can occasionally suffer from some warping or sagging. Price is great and they seem to be running on time these days.

For me, the quality increase of Moddler was not enough for the cost. I am unlikely to cast anything quite as thin as they can produce as the resin would snap in a second.
If Shapeways FUD quality isn't enough, you're looking at wax printing.
For this model, I would personally use Shapeways.

[paulson games]

Typically Moddler has a pretty fast turn around, I've sent stuff in and had it back in about a week. It it's going to run longer he ususally lets you know.

Shapeways took forever to get the order printed, the actual shipping was fast but as they email you at each step in the phase it was almost two weeks before they started the printing.

Cost wise if you are looking at the ultra frosted detail or moddler they'll be about the same. Most of the stuff I've had printed at modeller was in the $50-$75 range. The battletech/robotech models were $50 for the pair and they are about 50mm, so slightly smaller than a suit but not by much.

His rates are somewhat loose as he charges based on the time it takes to print and the cleaning involved so it's tricky to estimeate, shapeways charges strictly based on material volume.

I found that Moddler was way better than shapeways, but that was using their old material and I haven't tried anything with the their ultra detail stuff.


Either company you go with is going to have build lines they may not be very heavy but they'll show when painted. If you are just using it for display as is the white color actually helps hide the lines.

If you are going to cast it you'll need to prime it lightly so you can see the lines and then spend a bunch of time sanding and scrapingthe surfaces down. If you don't you'll have issues with it sticking in the silicone due to the rough edges and pourous nature of the print material. Even if it's not cleaned you need to prime it so the it doesn't bind with the silicone.

Another option is Vision Proto in texas but it'll be in the $200-$300 range, however their material is differant and you won't need to have it further cleaned and it'll arrive casting ready. Considering that I spent as much as 30 hours cleaning one of my mechs I've decided for future projects it's worth the expense to save all the etxra hassle of clenaing. But not everyone is going to want to spend that type of cash on a print.


As far as the forearm, I think that perhaps the hand and armor plate look a bit too fused? There's not any sort of distinct wrist. I realize that the standard suit doesn't have a wrist, but based on your design I think you meant to have some additional articulation.

What I'd do if change the armor plate so that it doesn't slope under the hand guard into the hand, but have it end just short of the hand guard. Make a slight bit of a gap so that you can see that the two pieces aren't fused.

I'd also repeat that around the inside of the wrist adding a little bit of a groove to create the illusion that there's a joint there rather than a solid block. Also maybe add a thumb so it can grasp stuff.

The angle of the hand is basically in a boxing punch posistion which is part of why it looks so posed to CC. Not that it is bad, but when combined with the locked/fused look of the wrist it appears as though it were extra armored specifically for punching if that makes sense?

The shoulders appear a bit wide but that's mainly due to them being level with the top of the torso, basically what you have are gundam shoulders. Try lifting them up slightly so that they are above the top line of the torso. That will also let you show a bit more of the upper arm structure. If they are gundam styled the are armor and veniers that are placed on top of the arm where there's a seperate arm underneath. I think you are close but need to lifted just a bit to show that it's on top of the arm.

[paulson games]

Ok did some quick changes on phototshop, these are all just loose suggestions so if you don't like it don't feel as though I'm trying to pushing you away from your core design, these are just minor things I'd alter.

Head I reduced by about 20%, raised the shoulder armor, extended the upper arm slightly and brought it closer to the chest. The hip piece I extended vertically a bit and brought the legs in together a bit more. This brings it more into an inverted triangle look, broad shoulders thin waist which is slightly more masculine and agressive in profile.

Original on left changes to the right:



I'd also widen the upper arm slightly (not the armor pad) as they look a bit spindly with the raised armor pads.

[mel_danes]

Paulson, Mangozac, Fleafa - Thanks for the great information and critique's. It means a lot to have veterans of the hobby, and people I admire giving me good advice and critiques. I have incorporated some of them into this current version. it may not be perfect but this whole process was meant to be a learning experience. Any bits I'm not %100 solid on can always be retooled later and re-printed.

So finally done. I went with a modified Cirillo thruster array. They pivot for ground mode and flight mode, seems most people wanted that option judging from the conversions I have seen.

Here are the current renders.
"Right Click and Open in a New Tab"



From the info it looks like the FUD material is maybe as good as Moddler's material. I may upload it to Moddler and get a quote from him. The model checks out in the Shapeways model checker and clocks in at $48.90 in Frosted Ultra Detail.

On the printing front I'm quite nervous about the way this guy is built. I have used sealed Geo, but it interpenetrates other surfaces.
To better explain. Say you have a rivet head or bolt on the surface of an armor panel. The rivet is a small cylinder floating just inside the poly for the surface, and poking out. You then just copy and paste this rivet all over to get the look you want. The model is a single mesh, but is composed of several elements. The rivets are not connected to the surface. I have uploaded test mesh's to Shapeways to see what fails and what passes, and this build goes through the auto checker OK.

Is this method of construction OK? Do the various jammed together bits need to be one contiguous surface?

Another procedural question. When you submit the final model for printing should you set it up in an exploded configuration, with proper facing and distances? Do they do that on their end?

Thanks again everyone for your encouragement and feedback. Once I get it printed I'll post pics, and keep posting as the process of duplication gets under way.

[paulson games]

Both shapeways and moddler can handle models made with multiple solids (and intersecting ones)

ome companies require everything to be a single mesh, but with eitehr company you will be fine with having overlapping geometries as long as they are all water tight.

I often upload models to shapeways to check and see if it's printable before I send them to moddler. Also download mesh lab it's freeware and it'll let you check for mesh errors an fix them.

If you want teh parts seperate you'll need to send them in as an exploded view otherwise they will print the model as a single piece. Make sure to send all the parts in the same file otherwise you get charged a set up fee for each file you send.

[mangozac]